Signal’s Meredith Whittaker: Breaking encryption while preserving privacy is ‘magical thinking’ | CyberScoop<\/title> <meta name=\"description\" content=\"The Signal president spoke with CyberScoop about AI, encryption and the growing threat to privacy.\"> <link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/cyberscoop.com\/signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking\/\"> <meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\"> <meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\"> <meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Signal's Meredith Whittaker: Breaking encryption while preserving privacy is 'magical thinking'\"> <meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"The Signal president spoke with CyberScoop about AI, encryption and the growing threat to privacy.\"> <meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/cyberscoop.com\/signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking\/\"> <meta property=\"og:site_name\" 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\/><\/filter><\/defs><\/svg> <a href=\"https:\/\/cyberscoop.com\/signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking\/#main\" class=\"skip-to-content-link visually-hidden-focusable\">Skip to main content<\/a> <\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--top ad--top-desktop\">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p> <main id=\"main\" role=\"main\" tabindex=\"-1\"> <\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--top ad--top-mobile\">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<section id=\"stickybar\" class=\"stickybar stickybar--newsletter js-stickybar\" readability=\"0.82\"> <button class=\"stickybar__close js-stickybar-close\" aria-controls=\"stickybar\"> <svg class=\"icon icon--close\" width=\"21\" height=\"22\" viewBox=\"0 0 21 22\" fill=\"none\"><path d=\"m.822.518-.805.805L9.695 11 .017 20.678l.805.805 9.678-9.678 9.677 9.678.806-.805L11.305 11l9.678-9.677-.806-.805-9.677 9.677L.822.518Z\" fill=\"currentColor\" \/><\/svg> <span class=\"visually-hidden\">Close<\/span> <\/button> <\/section>\n<article class=\"single-article content\">\n<div class=\"single-article__container js-single-article-content\">\n<header class=\"single-article__header \" readability=\"25.589694656489\">\n<div class=\"single-article__header-content\" readability=\"30.483050847458\">\n<p> The Signal president spoke with CyberScoop about AI, encryption and the growing threat to privacy. <\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div class=\"single-article__cover-wrap\">\n<figure class=\"single-article__cover\"> <img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" fetchpriority=\"high\" width=\"640\" height=\"426\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking.jpg?resize=640%2C426&ssl=1\" class=\"single-article__cover-image wp-post-image\" alt decoding=\"async\" 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https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking-1.jpg?resize=600,400 600w, https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking-1.jpg?resize=252,168 252w, https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking-1.jpg?resize=506,337 506w, https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking-1.jpg?resize=1013,675 1013w, https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking-1.jpg?resize=1265,843 1265w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1013px) 100vw, 1013px\"><figcaption> Signal messaging application President Meredith Whittaker poses for a photograph before an interview at the Europe’s largest tech conference, the Web Summit, in Lisbon on November 4, 2022. (Photo by PATRICIA DE MELO MOREIRA \/ AFP) (Photo by PATRICIA DE MELO MOREIRA\/AFP via Getty Images) <\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/header>\n<div class=\"single-article__content\">\n<div class=\"single-article__content-inner has-drop-cap\"> <html readability=\"75.5\"><body readability=\"151\"><\/p>\n<p>With tens of millions of users around the globe, Signal is one of the leading messaging apps offering encryption to protect messages from snoops. As a result, it\u2019s also become a target of lawmakers seeking to undermine the technology.<\/p>\n<p>Tasked with overseeing a staff of a little over 40 at the small nonprofit that keeps the app running, Signal President Meredith Whittaker is the company\u2019s voice when it comes to fighting against policies that threaten users\u2019 privacy. And lately, there\u2019s been no shortage of risks. Recently, Signal joined critics including Meta to call for changes to the U.K. Online Safety Bill, which is expected to soon reach a final vote. The bill would introduce client-side scanning, a technology that scans people\u2019s private communications on their devices to match against a database of content considered objectionable.<\/p>\n<p>A prominent artificial intelligence researcher who formerly worked at Google before helping co-found the AI Now research institute, Whittaker is also a leading voice in warning about the technology\u2019s potential harms to civil liberties. CyberScoop spoke with Whittaker about global threats to encryption and how AI may be fueling \u201cmagical thinking\u201d about how governments are trying to evade encrypted technologies.<\/p>\n<p>This conversation has been edited for clarity and length.<\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--inline_1 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p><strong><em>Some people say we\u2019re entering another stage of the encryption wars. How would you describe the moment we\u2019re in?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The threat is very real and very immediate. In my time, I have not seen a greater threat. And I think it is necessary that we push back and clarify the terms. Now, I don\u2019t think if we\u2019re going to frame this as a war, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a war we\u2019re ever going to definitively win. Because what we\u2019re dealing with is not a misunderstanding of how technology works, at least it is not based on a misunderstanding. We\u2019re not going to convince those in power that they should give up their pursuit of information asymmetry as a tool of power, which is effectively what surveillance generates for those who surveil over those who are surveilled. The will to centralize power has come with the kind of will to manage, surveil, socially control populations, and I don\u2019t think that kind of nucleus is going away. But right now I think we\u2019re in a pretty significant moment. It\u2019s really important that we continue to clarify the terms and continue to ultimately win on this, or we could be facing a scenario where the possibility for private digital communications is all but curtailed. <\/p>\n<p><strong><em>What do you mean when you say, \u201cclarify the terms\u201d?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>There is a vein of magical thinking that is claiming that technologies like client-side scanning will somehow be able to surveil everyone\u2019s communications on behalf of the government and some mixture of private entities determine whether those communications are considered acceptable or not, and take action on that determination. And somehow do this privately. I think we need to be very clear that there\u2019s no way to implement a safe backdoor. Artificial intelligence \u2014 whatever you have been led to believe by the marketing of these companies \u2014 is not in fact capable of magic. <\/p>\n<p>The claims that are being made about what is possible via this type of surveillance are in fact not grounded in reality. There is some myth-busting and some deflating of the hype that needs to happen. And then I think there\u2019s a need to put this in a more grounded historical context that does recognize the stakes of creating a system that allows the government to effectively monitor everyone\u2019s private communication all the time. The pretext for that monitoring may change. But that\u2019s something we really need to emphasize \u2014 just how dangerous that kind of regime could be. <\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--inline_1 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p>We\u2019re post-Dobbs now. We\u2019ve already seen Jessica Burgess, who was a mother in Nebraska, who was charged with a felony for helping her daughter access reproductive care after the state suddenly banned reproductive care. And the evidence provided that led to that charge were Facebook messages. We have a sense of how this could be used in a world where people\u2019s identities<strong> <\/strong>are criminalized, and where people\u2019s access to information is criminalized. That really needs to be a much bigger part of the debate.<\/p>\n<p><strong><em>What do you think are the most imminent threats to encryption?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m certainly keeping a close eye on the encryption provisions in the U.K.\u2019s Online Safety Bill. I should be clear that the bill itself is a kind of omnibus collection of a number of different provisions and some of them are good. I think researchers having access to tech company data that\u2019s really positive and, we should not throw that out. However, there are some really troubling provisions in there that would give the U.K.\u2019s telecom and competition regulator the ability to mandate government-approved scanning technology on everyone\u2019s device that would implement a regime of mass surveillance, that would check people\u2019s communications before they were sent against an opaque database of unacceptable speech using very likely some variant of artificial intelligence or machine models to sort of detect impermissible content and take action based on those detections. And that is absolutely unacceptable. And that would be a total evisceration of the right to privacy in addition to just standing up an extraordinarily expensive, unworkable regime.<\/p>\n<p><strong><em>You already mentioned client-side scanning has gained a lot of traction as a workaround for encryption. Why do you think it\u2019s gained popularity?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The kind of moment we\u2019re in where there\u2019s so much ungrounded AI hype is contributing to this. You have tech executives coming on stage saying they believe these systems are conscious. We have many, many different companies and many, many different \u201cfathers of AI\u201d making claims about the capabilities of these systems that simply are not grounded in reality. And so this creates an atmosphere in which it\u2019s not hard to understand why someone not familiar with the material details of these technologies might believe that, \u201cOh, I guess if AI can think better than a human being, why couldn\u2019t client-side scanning accomplish the impossible by scanning content privately?\u201d And I think<strong> <\/strong>there\u2019s a suspension of disbelief that has happened because we\u2019re inundated with baseless claims. And so why wouldn\u2019t this other baseless claim also be true?<\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--inline_1 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p><strong><em>In the U.S., we\u2019ve seen anti-encryption rhetoric, especially around child sexual exploitation materials (CSAM). Do you see things getting worse in the U.S.?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s certainly always been a will from some parts of law enforcement to break or undermine encryption. This isn\u2019t new. I am tracking the potential resurgence of the EARN IT Act and the Kids Online Safety Act. I think the age verification bills are really concerning. To verify someone\u2019s age, you have to have information about their identity, you have to be able to verify that identity and you have to effectively create a kind of surveillance database.<\/p>\n<p>The focus on the U.K. is that it is the furthest along. And what we do know from tech policy is that precedent is extremely powerful. Precedent gets copied and pasted by governments around the world pretty quickly because regulating new technology is seen as difficult and risky.<\/p>\n<p><strong><em>Part of the encryption backlash is the idea that it facilitates CSAM. How do you respond to such an emotional, visceral argument against encryption?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I think you need to face it. It\u2019s not like I can\u2019t avoid it or say, \u201cWe\u2019re not talking about that, we\u2019re talking about math.\u201d That\u2019s not really addressing the issue. But it very quickly becomes a frame where it\u2019s almost like, all child abuse is caused by online [activity.] So, the frame of the problem is suddenly technological. So that frame of the solution is, of course, technological, right? And all of this ignores the fact that there are children suffering in the real world, and they need help.<\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--inline_1 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p>The majority of abuse happens in families and when it doesn\u2019t happen in families it is largely perpetrated by an adult who is an authority figure tasked with caring for a child in some form. That\u2019s not happening online. That\u2019s happening in the real world.<\/p>\n<p>There are dynamics here that are really, really grim, that we do need to look in the face if we\u2019re going to address this. And I think in some ways, abstracting this online and making it a problem of the technology and of the \u201ctech boogeyman\u201d is a way of actually avoiding looking at those dynamics in the face.<\/p>\n<p><strong><em>Encrypted messaging services have banded together in opposition to the U.K. law. How do you navigate being in solidarity with a company like Meta, which has a very different business model than Signal?<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Extraordinary threats call into being unusual coalitions. Solidarity is a very particular practice. I don\u2019t know if this is solidarity. But in this moment, faced with these threats we share a common interest. At the same time, this doesn\u2019t mean I\u2019m any less critical of Meta\u2019s surveillance practices. This doesn\u2019t mean that I\u2019m not going to call out WhatsApp for advertising themselves as truly private when they continue to collect metadata that could easily be joined with Facebook data. Where we are right now is there\u2019s a real threat to the ability to communicate privately. And one of the scant handful of good things Meta has done is not ripped out the Signal protocol WhatsApp integrated right before it was sold to Meta.<\/p>\n<p>If they\u2019re fighting to ensure that the historical norm of privacy continues to be available for human conversations, even as many of our communications have moved online, then we\u2019re fighting that battle, too. But that doesn\u2019t imply anything else.<\/p>\n<p><\/body> <\/p>\n<footer class=\"single-article__footer\"> <\/footer>\n<p> <\/html><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div class=\"single-article__ads js-single-article-sidebar\">\n<div class=\"ad ad--sidebar js-single-article-sidebar-5 ad--rightrail_1 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"ad ad--sidebar js-single-article-sidebar-4 ad--rightrail_2 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"ad ad--sidebar js-single-article-sidebar-3 ad--rightrail_3 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n<\/article>\n<div class=\"popular-stories popular-stories--single-post\">\n<div class=\"popular-stories__container\">\n<h2 class=\"popular-stories__title\"> More Scoops <\/h2>\n<p>  <\/div>\n<p>\n<\/div>\n<p> <\/p>\n<section class=\"latest-podcasts\">\n<h2 class=\"latest-podcasts__title\"> Latest Podcasts\t<\/h2>\n<\/section>\n<div class=\"top-categories\">\n<div class=\"top-categories__container\">\n<h3 class=\"top-categories__category-title\">Technology<\/h3>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div class=\"top-categories__container\">\n<h3 class=\"top-categories__category-title\">Government<\/h3>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<p> <\/main> <\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--bottom \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div id=\"interstitial\" class=\"welcome__container\"> <button id=\"close-modal-1\" class=\"welcome__clickable_area\"><\/button> <\/p>\n<div class=\"welcome__ad_wrapper\">\n<p> <button id=\"close-modal-3\" class=\"welcome__continue-button\">Continue to CyberScoop<\/button> <\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<p>   <\/body> <a href=\"https:\/\/cyberscoop.com\/signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking\/\">Source<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Signal’s Meredith Whittaker: Breaking encryption while preserving privacy is ‘magical<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":11,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[268],"tags":[274],"class_list":["post-1475","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-privacy","tag-privacy"],"featured_image_urls":{"full":"","thumbnail":"","medium":"","medium_large":"","large":"","1536x1536":"","2048x2048":"","chromenews-featured":"","chromenews-large":"","chromenews-medium":""},"author_info":{"display_name":"Cyber Scoop","author_link":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/author\/cyberscoop\/"},"category_info":"<a href=\"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/category\/privacy\/\" rel=\"category tag\">Privacy<\/a>","tag_info":"Privacy","comment_count":"0","jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1475","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/11"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1475"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1475\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1475"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1475"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1475"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}

{"id":1475,"date":"2023-07-07T13:54:51","date_gmt":"2023-07-07T13:54:51","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/cyberscoop.com\/?p=75191"},"modified":"2023-07-07T13:54:51","modified_gmt":"2023-07-07T13:54:51","slug":"signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/2023\/07\/07\/signals-meredith-whittaker-breaking-encryption-while-preserving-privacy-is-magical-thinking\/","title":{"rendered":"Signal\u2019s Meredith Whittaker: Breaking encryption while preserving privacy is \u2018magical thinking\u2019"},"content":{"rendered":"