Trump and others want to ramp up cyber offense, but there\u2019s plenty of doubt about the idea | CyberScoop<\/title> <meta name=\"description\" content=\"Amid rising cyber threats, experts and lawmakers debate the effectiveness of the United States' aggressive offensive cyber strategies.\"> <link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/cyberscoop.com\/aggressive-cyber-offense-trump-administration-us-strategy-debate\/\"> <meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\"> <meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\"> <meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Trump and others want to ramp up cyber offense, but there\u2019s plenty of doubt about the idea\"> <meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Amid rising cyber threats, experts and lawmakers debate the effectiveness of the United States' aggressive offensive cyber strategies.\"> <meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/cyberscoop.com\/aggressive-cyber-offense-trump-administration-us-strategy-debate\/\"> <meta property=\"og:site_name\" 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class=\"single-article__cover\"> <img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" fetchpriority=\"high\" width=\"640\" height=\"480\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/01\/trump-and-others-want-to-ramp-up-cyber-offense-but-theres-plenty-of-doubt-about-the-idea.jpg?resize=640%2C480&ssl=1\" class=\"single-article__cover-image wp-post-image\" alt=\"Donald Trump\" decoding=\"async\" fetchpriority=\"high\" srcset=\"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/01\/trump-and-others-want-to-ramp-up-cyber-offense-but-theres-plenty-of-doubt-about-the-idea-1.jpg 1600w, https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/01\/trump-and-others-want-to-ramp-up-cyber-offense-but-theres-plenty-of-doubt-about-the-idea-1.jpg?resize=300,225 300w, https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/01\/trump-and-others-want-to-ramp-up-cyber-offense-but-theres-plenty-of-doubt-about-the-idea-1.jpg?resize=768,576 768w, 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https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/01\/trump-and-others-want-to-ramp-up-cyber-offense-but-theres-plenty-of-doubt-about-the-idea-1.jpg?resize=900,675 900w, https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/01\/trump-and-others-want-to-ramp-up-cyber-offense-but-theres-plenty-of-doubt-about-the-idea-1.jpg?resize=1124,843 1124w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 900px) 100vw, 900px\"><figcaption> (Graphic by Emma Whitehead \/ Photo: Gage Skidmore) <\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/header>\n<div class=\"single-article__content\">\n<div class=\"single-article__content-inner has-drop-cap\"> <html readability=\"90.355224882524\"><body readability=\"183.30894123028\"><\/p>\n<p>In recent months, incoming Trump administration national security adviser Mike Waltz and some lawmakers have suggested that in response to Chinese cyber breaches, the United States needs to prioritize taking more aggressive offensive actions in cyberspace rather than emphasizing defense.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s been said before. And it\u2019s easier said than done.<\/p>\n<p>Experts that spoke with reporters for this story note several multifaceted questions regarding enhanced offensive operations, including what form they would take and if it\u2019s an appropriate response to the recent rash of intrusions. Offensive operations are technically complex \u2014 unlike in Hollywood, where they\u2019re as easy as pushing an \u201center\u201d button \u2014 and potentially introduce new risks for the attackers.<\/p>\n<p>Furthermore, those calling for more cyber offense might not be aware of the scope of current secret U.S. operations, itself a conundrum: If the country doesn\u2019t take credit publicly, how would adversaries know it struck back and therefore deter present or future attackers? <\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--inline_1 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p>In the end, it might not dissuade other nations if the United States gets more aggressive in cyberspace, said Herb Lin, a senior research scholar for cyber policy and security at Stanford\u2019s Center for International Security and Cooperation.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWhat I\u2019m trying to understand in all this is people who say we should go on the offensive more. It sounds good in practice, [but] what are you going to do?\u201d he said. \u201cI haven\u2019t seen a plausible scenario that actually gets them the outcome they want.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Waltz hasn\u2019t detailed exactly in interviews what he means <a href=\"https:\/\/www.cbsnews.com\/news\/michael-waltz-trump-national-security-adviser-face-the-nation-transcript-12-15-2024\/\">when he says<\/a> the United States needs to \u201cstart going on offense and start imposing \u2026 higher costs and consequences\u201d in response to data theft, espionage and most worrisomely, <a href=\"https:\/\/cyberscoop.com\/tag\/volt-typhoon\/\">Chinese hackers<\/a>, known as Volt Typhoon, that the U.S. government has said are prepositioning themselves to attack U.S. critical infrastructure in the event of conflict over Taiwan. But <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=eE2JYorFobQ\">in an interview<\/a> with the Daily Wire, he said the United States didn\u2019t respond to Soviet nuclear stockpiling by building better missile defenses \u2014 instead, it stockpiled its own nukes.<\/p>\n<p>And in <a href=\"https:\/\/www.breitbart.com\/politics\/2025\/01\/09\/exclusive-mike-waltz-clean-out-deep-staters-from-national-security-council-were-taking-resignations-1201-january-20\/\">an interview<\/a> with Breitbart, he got a little more specific. \u201cI believe personally you can do that by demonstrating if you\u2019re putting cyber time bombs in our ports and grid that we can do it to you too so let\u2019s both not \u2014 mutually assured destruction\u2014 and take the temperature down on this a bit.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>At <a href=\"https:\/\/www.commerce.senate.gov\/2024\/12\/communications-networks-safety-and-security\">a hearing last month<\/a> about another Chinese Salt Typhoon hacker group\u2019s <a href=\"https:\/\/cyberscoop.com\/tag\/salt-typhoon\/\">massive espionage-oriented hack<\/a> of telecommunications carriers, several lawmakers on both sides of the aisle pressed witnesses on the topic of offense. \u201cWhy aren\u2019t we going on offense, and doesn\u2019t that help?\u201d asked Sen. Dan Suillivan, R-Alaska, saying it\u2019s a repeated line of questioning from lawmakers at classified briefings, too, and other key lawmakers have <a href=\"https:\/\/www.politico.com\/newsletters\/weekly-cybersecurity\/2025\/01\/13\/bringing-home-the-cyber-bacon-00197749\">echoed those calls<\/a>.<\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--inline_1 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p>Current national security adviser Jake Sullivan said on Friday that the United States has \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/technology\/cybersecurity\/us-has-responded-chinese-linked-cyber-attacks-telecoms-firms-sullivan-says-2025-01-10\/\">taken steps<\/a> in response to Salt Typhoon\u201d to \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.pbs.org\/newshour\/show\/jake-sullivan-on-bidens-foreign-policy-legacy-and-trumps-unconventional-tactics\">make it harder<\/a> for China to actually be able to execute this\u201d but didn\u2019t elaborate further.<\/p>\n<p>Advocates for increased offensive measures need to clarify what precisely they want to do, experts said. Past, publicly revealed U.S. cyber operations include Stuxnet, which targeted <a href=\"https:\/\/www.wired.com\/2014\/11\/countdown-to-zero-day-stuxnet\/\">Iranian centrifuges<\/a> in a joint effort with Israel, and others aimed at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/world\/national-security\/us-cyber-command-operation-disrupted-internet-access-of-russian-troll-factory-on-day-of-2018-midterms\/2019\/02\/26\/1827fc9e-36d6-11e9-af5b-b51b7ff322e9_story.html\">would-be election meddlers<\/a> from Russia <a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/national-security\/2022\/12\/22\/cybercom-russia-iran-attacks\/\">and Iran<\/a>. Lin said other options include getting into adversary nations\u2019 systems \u2014 like Volt Typhoon is said to have done in the United States \u2014 to prepare for future attacks, or leaking embarrassing information about enemies, although that\u2019s less about new offensives and more about capitalizing on existing intelligence.<\/p>\n<p>Lin and Erica Lonergan, an assistant professor at Columbia University\u2019s School of International and Public Affairs, said there\u2019s been some blurring in the public discussion about the nature of espionage, like the kind that Salt Typhoon has conducted with its telecom breaches, and whether going on offense is the right response. The United States, after all, uses cyber for espionage, too.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWe risk conflating different types of threats, and also like not being clear about what we mean by offense,\u201d Lonergan said. \u201cApplying a deterrence model to espionage questions is a bit of a mismatch.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The first Trump administration did <a href=\"https:\/\/cyberscoop.com\/white-house-cyber-strategy-john-bolton-announcement\/\">loosen the rules<\/a> on the Defense Department conducting offensive cyber operations. <a href=\"https:\/\/www.c4isrnet.com\/dod\/cybercom\/2018\/11\/27\/defense-officials-taking-advantage-of-new-cyber-authorities\/\">Congress in recent years<\/a> also has helped pave the way to lift certain hurdles that existed in the past to help demystify legal barriers and speed up operations. <\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--inline_1 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p>Charles Moore, the former deputy commander and director of operations at Cyber Command, said a move toward \u201ccyber campaigning\u201d would be \u201cthe most important step\u201d that DOD and Cybercom could do to increase the scale and strengthen the impact of their operations.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cInstead of conducting specific, one-off operations, campaigning represents a persistent series of operations geared towards accomplishing clear strategic objectives,\u201d Moore said. \u201cThis approach is more impactful than ad hoc operations but requires support from the other departments and agencies in order for Cyber Command to operate at the speed, and have the freedom of maneuver necessary for it to be accomplished effectively.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Still, the reality is that offensive cyber operations are \u201cslow and grinding, and take a lot of time,\u201d according to Emerson Brooking, director of strategy and resident senior fellow at the Digital Forensic Research Lab of the Atlantic Council Technology Programs, and one of the authors of the 2023 DOD cyber strategy. <\/p>\n<p>They require gaining access to adversaries\u2019 networks \u2014 not always an easy task \u2014 as well as mapping those networks to understand where the intended targets or desired information exists, and then figuring out how to degrade or destroy those portions of the network without causing <a href=\"https:\/\/www.wired.com\/story\/eternalblue-leaked-nsa-spy-tool-hacked-world\/\">more widespread harm<\/a>. Experts note that offensive operations also risk the discovery of cyber tools used for other purposes \u2014 such as U.S. espionage \u2014 that could render them useless.<\/p>\n<p>Much U.S. policymaking on cyber deterrence over the years has emphasized responding to cyberattacks in a variety of ways, from economic sanctions to legal action. Experts believe that\u2019s the right emphasis. Offensive operations can be a part of that, they say.<\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--inline_1 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p>That\u2019s because researchers say there\u2019s little evidence that any cyberattacks have effectively caused anyone to change their behavior. But some of the outer limits haven\u2019t been tested, and it\u2019s not clear when cyber offense might prompt retaliation against the United States.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cThe question for this administration is going to be, how do we send the right messages and create the right deterrent without causing an escalation?\u201d said Kurt Sanger, Cyber Command\u2019s former deputy general counsel. \u201cThere\u2019s some line out there that you cross it, and it will lead China and Russia to escalate, but it probably has not been properly explored yet.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That doesn\u2019t mean the United States isn\u2019t conducting offensive operations right now. But experts say it\u2019s a tool that\u2019s currently less effective than other means of sending signals to adversaries about what kind of behavior they want. The historically clandestine nature of offensive cyber operations runs counter to, for example, the airstrikes the Trump administration<a href=\"https:\/\/www.defense.gov\/News\/News-Stories\/Article\/article\/1144601\/trump-orders-missile-attack-in-retaliation-for-syrian-chemical-strikes\/\"> ordered against Syria in 2017<\/a> in response to their use of chemical weapons. <\/p>\n<p>The missiles were meant to send a clear, public message.As Cybercom has grown to stand on its own from an offshoot of the intelligence-rooted nature of cyber, it has sought<a href=\"https:\/\/fedscoop.com\/us-cyber-command-offensive-cybersecurity-nsa-august-2016\/\"> \u201clouder\u201d tools<\/a> \u2014 akin to physical attacks \u2014 where the target knew it was from the U.S. military. <\/p>\n<p>\u201cMaybe the new administration will decide it\u2019s time to do something a little louder, or even if the tool is the same, to accompany it with a statement that [says], \u2018hey, we did that,\u2019 for example,\u201d said Gary Brown, Cybercom\u2019s first senior legal counsel and now a professor at Texas A&M\u2019s Bush School of Government & Public Service. <\/p>\n<div class=\"ad ad--inline_1 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p>However, some experts doubt that any steps taken by a new administration would be effective, partly due to the fundamental nature of international conflict. <\/p>\n<p>\u201cIt\u2019s hard to shape the behavior of adversaries in competition just in general, and especially in cyberspace,\u201d Lonergan said.<\/p>\n<p>Or, as Lin put it, when discussing a range of more aggressive U.S. cyber operation options: \u201cLet\u2019s imagine we could do all of that. What good would it do?\u201d<\/p>\n<p> <\/body> <\/p>\n<footer class=\"single-article__footer\" readability=\"0.32460732984293\">\n<div class=\"author-card\" readability=\"7\">\n<p><h4 class=\"author-card__name\">Written by Tim Starks and Mark Pomerleau<\/h4>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div class=\"single-article__tags-container\">\n<h4 class=\"single-article__tags-title\">In This Story<\/h4>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/footer>\n<p> <\/html><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<div class=\"single-article__ads js-single-article-sidebar\">\n<div class=\"ad ad--sidebar js-single-article-sidebar-5 ad--rightrail_1 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"ad ad--sidebar js-single-article-sidebar-4 ad--rightrail_2 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Advertisement<\/span> <\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"ad ad--sidebar js-single-article-sidebar-3 ad--rightrail_3 \">\n<div class=\"ad__inner\"> <span 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but<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":11,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[271,1540,78,1351,302,117,304,3456,2953,3457,310,1498],"tags":[277,1542,86,1353,306,119,308,3458,2956,3459,311,1499],"class_list":["post-6889","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-china","category-cyber-command","category-cybersecurity","category-department-of-defense-dod","category-geopolitics","category-government","category-national-security-agency-nsa","category-offensive-cybersecurity","category-salt-typhoon","category-stuxnet","category-technology","category-volt-typhoon","tag-china","tag-cyber-command","tag-cybersecurity","tag-department-of-defense-dod","tag-geopolitics","tag-government","tag-national-security-agency-nsa","tag-offensive-cybersecurity","tag-salt-typhoon","tag-stuxnet","tag-technology","tag-volt-typhoon"],"featured_image_urls":{"full":"","thumbnail":"","medium":"","medium_large":"","large":"","1536x1536":"","2048x2048":"","chromenews-featured":"","chromenews-large":"","chromenews-medium":""},"author_info":{"display_name":"Cyber 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href=\"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/category\/offensive-cybersecurity\/\" rel=\"category tag\">offensive cybersecurity<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/category\/salt-typhoon\/\" rel=\"category tag\">Salt Typhoon<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/category\/stuxnet\/\" rel=\"category tag\">Stuxnet<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/category\/technology\/\" rel=\"category tag\">Technology<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/category\/volt-typhoon\/\" rel=\"category tag\">Volt Typhoon<\/a>","tag_info":"Volt 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{"id":6889,"date":"2025-01-13T12:03:04","date_gmt":"2025-01-13T18:03:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/cyberscoop.com\/?p=83110"},"modified":"2025-01-13T12:03:04","modified_gmt":"2025-01-13T18:03:04","slug":"trump-and-others-want-to-ramp-up-cyber-offense-but-theres-plenty-of-doubt-about-the-idea","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/ddi.mohflo.net\/index.php\/2025\/01\/13\/trump-and-others-want-to-ramp-up-cyber-offense-but-theres-plenty-of-doubt-about-the-idea\/","title":{"rendered":"Trump and others want to ramp up cyber offense, but there\u2019s plenty of doubt about the idea"},"content":{"rendered":"